So if this is really the case, why don't YOU tell us what YOU have done. Why should I have to search for you to find out what oyu have done!? Why do I have to wait until I turn to you with a specific personal request until YOU do SOMETHING? Why don't you act for the betterment of the whole city on your own w/o waiting to be asked? Why don't you have a t least a minimal platform explaining what you'd do when oyu get into the Iriyah and not just vote for me so that I can give you protexia when you needit!? You guys are very good to list issues and problems but I haven't heard any suggestions how to solve them? How do YOU plan to get Road 10 open? How do YOU plan to dela with the crime? how do YOU plan to deal with the poor people that look nothing like you or don't even know you exist in certain parts of the city?
How can you tell me that YOU represent me - a G_d fearing Jew if your candidate has made deals with almost every non-religious party in the city!? Do the ends justify the means!?
Please do tell us just why we should vote for YOU!?

Could you please tell us who the local rabbonim of UTJ are?

disgruntled - my thoughts on that (not an official UTJ answer) are that these are not issues Degel considers a priority, Degel (Gimmel) is more focused on solving issues dealing directly with the haredi community, be it school buildings, classrooms, funding, jobs for haredi women, etc...

Rafi, although it doesn't seem like there are many Shas supporters that read this forum, as the front runner for Mayor is from Shas, I would like to hear from them as well. Shalom Lerner is promoting the BeYachad list, in part because thinks they will be viewed as an asset even by people like yourself, who won't vote BeYachad but would vote Lerner. The fact is that no one has a clue who the Shas people are, and indeed those are the people that would be running the city is Abutbul wins. The fact that they are so anonymous scares me.

Rafi - you may be right but in their post they make mention of other city-wide issues such as parking and Road 10 and to that I have a few things to say:
1)What happened to basic road safety? Why aren't they leading a campaign to tell all UTJ supporters to drive more carefully, actually stop at crosswalks, not throw litter in the street etc.
2)How do they expect to add parking in the shopping center!? What are their ideas? DO they plan to use city money to build an ugly parkign garage that wil sit empty all night and all weekend - Where would they put such a garage - infornt of the windows of their supporters - Who are they kidding. Is it really sane city management to throw out more money on a very succesful shopping center (that's why there's no parkign spots) instead of investing the money on parking for the old merkaz?

2)Road 10 - I almost fell off my seat laughing. Whatever canthey do to get Road 10 repaired and officialy opened? DO they have tens of millions of shekels floating around to spend on this intercity road? The ministry of transport hasn't managed to solve the problems for 5 years now and these guys think that they'll have it solves in no time. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that these UTJ guys don't even know wht the issues are that are holding up Road 10. And if these guys are so savvy, where have they been the last 5 years to get Road 10 back on track. Stop feeding us NONESENSE! Matrix came here because is was economically viable for them to come not because UTJ. If it was because of UTJ then they wouldn't have set up in such a non-tznius place such as BIG they would have set up in the Kirya. YOu can scream tznius, tznius all you want but it's ok to send your wives to learn in such an untznius place, it's ok for UTJ's mayoral candidate to be photographed with untznius women so that he can win and so that these guys can keep their seats.
They mention that they "achieve great things for this city" - please show me 1 great thing that they acheived! Also stop bellyaching about how hard you worked "day and night" blah blah blah Stop spending your energy on sinat chinam and bashing other candidates because people are voting for them and not YOU. stop wasting your time spreading hatred amongst Jews and then maybe you'll have time to actually do something good.

anonymous - I agree with you. I noticed a couple of things. I think I pointed out one of them before in a post..

Abutbol has not included Gimmel people in any of his advertising. he shows himself hugging the guys from balaish, Labor and all the other people who joined him, but there are no pictures of him with the UTJ people. I think that is deceptive advertising used so people will see him as open to the secular, but not beholden or connected to the haredim.
He even put out some new pictuures in the most recent papers this past Friday. They were montages of regular people around Bet Shemesh who support him. They were people of all stripes from secular to religious, sefardi to ashkenazy, etc. The only thing missing was in all the montages, there was not a single haredi person pictured.

The second thing I noticed is that he also has not shown any of his own Shas people in his ads.

it is not fair or right to take away an accomplishment. maybe you can say there is more to be done, maybe you can say they did that but neglected other things, but the fact is Degel (specifically Montag) was instrumental in bringing Matrix to Bet Shemesh. You cannot take that away from them.

Ok Rafi, maybe I missed that one out but what about the rest of the claims. I mean they start off their post with "emor meat v'aseh harbe" - sounds nice, but they certainly had plenty of time and money to put out sinat chinam adds against other parties. If they are "emor meat" then they either should have said nothing or at least told us their platform and not waste thier few words spreading sinat chinam. I spoke to one of hte parties being attacked and they told me that they made a conscious decision not to respond to UTJ's attack because they really want to unify the neighborhood and not split it like UTJ is doing and that in their party there is no room for sinat chinam. It would have made a tremendouos impression on me if UTj would have stood up and said that in light of the financial situation of many of our voters, we are not spending TENS of THOUSANDS of SHEKELS on a campaign and on posters but rather we are going to hand out the money to the poor or give everyone a discount on their tuition for cheder. That would have shown rue leadership and compassion for their people.

My burning question is how UTJ, a party that purports to espouse Torah values, has apparently had no compunction in conducting the most vicious and vindictive smear campaign against Tov. And don't try pretend that those filthy flyers littering the streets weren't put out by your people. You act like the votes of every person in Beit Shemesh who wears black and white and isn't Sefardi are your G-d-given right, and anyone who doesn't vote for you is some kind of apikoros. I am disgusted with Gimmel, and I hope Tov takes a good chunk out of the Gimmel support base.

Many of those who are concerned about Gimmel are not going to be reassured by talk of how they brought businesses here. What concerns us are Gimmel's plans for the future of Bet Shemesh, namely, are they going to be effectively turning it into a charedi city. Abutbul says that he wants to turn the valley across from Yarkon into cheap housing. Abutbul is likely to be persuaded by Perlstein, Goldstein and the like to allow tznius signs everywhere. The effect will be to drive out the non-charedim and change the character of the town.

Can one change their mind quickly?

You bet. While always considering Abutbol his campaign's actions today decided for me.

Thousands of little Moshe Abutbol petekim are littering my street. In addition to a major waste of money it makes our street look disgusting.

If this man has no consideration for the beauty of our streets and throws money out w/o consideration what will be if he is mayor?

My vote is for Shalom Lerner.

I do not want to give Shas any more power than they already have. In my opinion, bolstering up Shas in Bet Shemesh is bolstering them up nationally as well.

Let's get real folks, Shas is a party of socialist ideas. Take from the rich and give to the poor. Here's an idea..how about going to work and earning your keep like everyone else?

Israel needs to stop voting for parties just because they came from the same Shtetl in Poland or Morocco. We need to vote based on ideas and values.

No to Shas. No to UTJ. Yes to Shalom Lerner and working TOGETHER to create a cleaner, brighter future for Bet Shemesh.

UTJ brought us Matrix? Now that's funny. They offered frum women a full time job starting at 7 am for 4000 nis per month, with a two year commitment. Oh I'm sorry the second year they pay 6000 nis, a secretary's salary.

Dear annonymous at 11:14 welcome to the State of Israel. The state that allows 1/3 of its children to live beneath the poverty line. Now you begin to understand how that came to be. Minimum wage is such that a woman working all day will end up with that sort of salary. Nothing to do with Matrix. Their job is to make money. Nothing to do with UTJ. Without bringing Matrix to Bet Shemesh these women wouldn't even be getting that. This is a national problem.

Hi disgruntled in RBS. I know I will not be changing your view on Abutbul or Gimmel. I see from your tone of voice that you obviously have an agenda. However allow me to set the record straight:
1) Nobody said they have a solution for the parking in RBS shopping center. All thay said is that they promise to bring architects and planners and sit and talk about it. I think that's the best way of starting to tackle any problem. they didn't promise the solution. They promised to give it attention. And it's for sure better than what the current mayor did i.e. just paint a few more spots red and white, reserve a few more spaces for taxis and disabled, and send the cops to collect the fines. At any rate it's certainly better than your "let's give up before we start" approach
2) Road 10 is, as you say, the problem of the ministry of transport. However for them, it's much easier to put up a no entry sign and send the cops to collect the fines. You must give it to them. That way there may one day be money to pay for the road!
In this dear state of Israel, there are only 2 things that work. They are both alien to ALL of us chutznikim. a) shouting. b) protectzia. Nothing else will get us the road. Gimmel are great at shouting and Abutbul has all the necessary national clout a mayor would need.
3) Have ANY of the parties published a blueprint of how they plan to fight crime or poverty in the city? I am not sure why you are holding it against them for not publicising a full plan. By the way, I heard recently first hand from a Kupa representative that shas has helped them tremendously over the last few years in every way possible (the guy who told me was for sure a gimmel guy but he was still singing their praises) He told me that in their brochure from their dinner last year, they publicly thanked 2 of the 3 shas guys for all their help. this was long before we were dreaming of elections (so maybe they even meant it!)
4)I am obviously missing some facts but why do you think that all UTJ supporters drive recklessly and everyone else not. I see nothing on which to base this absolutely stupid claim. Ever heard of Motzi Shem Ra? This is a public forum. Please watch what you write
5)If you really think their campaign against TOV was simple sinas chinom then I suggest you call up either Rabbi Kornfeld or Rabbi Goldstein or even listen to a recording of Rav Steinman's speech in the gra yesterday and you may see it isn't quite that. I'm sure you don't accuse Rav Steinman of coming all the way to Beit Shemesh to speak loshon horah.
6)Just as an afterthought, many schools received buildings over the last few years due to hard work from the gimmel representatives. Toras Moshe also just received classrooms. That was 100% Montag. Not one other person can claim to have got it for them. I would have expected just a little bit more hakaras hatov from the Beis Tefilla crowd...

Anonymous,

It has everything to do with UTJ. These women have no negotiating power because they are Charedi. If they worked in a normal setting they would get paid a lot more.

The fact is that the Charedi population is poor by choice. When you have a lot of kids and have no education it is very tough to make a living. What do you want the government to do? Redistribute the wealth?